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The real revolution 5/真正的革命5——一凡译

K: To ask questions is not to find an answer,        克:提问并不是要找到一个答案,
but to discover.        而是去探索。
Q: During the past four decades        旁白:在过去的四十年里,
the talks and writings of Krishnamurti        克里希那穆提的谈话和著作
have stimulated and profoundly challenged        激励了并深深地挑战了
audiences in Asia, Europe and America.        亚洲、欧洲和美洲的听众。
During a series of public talks        在加州的欧亥山谷进行的
given in the Ojai Valley in California,        一系列公开讲话中,
Krishnamurti for the first time        克里希那穆提第一次
permitted the presence of film cameras.        允许录影机在场。
This series of 8 programs is the result.        结果就有了这八集的系列节目。
As always, Krishnamurti addresses himself to questions        像通常那样,克里希那穆提致力于探讨一些
which most directly affect our lives.        直接影响我们生活的问题。
The subject of this,        这集节目,
the 5th program in the series is:        是这个系列中的第五集,主题是:
'What is love?'        “爱是什么?”
K: ...the mind becomes naturally expectant, awaiting,        克:...心智自然变得充满期待、等待着,
and therefore not clear,        因此不清晰、
decisive and capable of discovery.        不果断,不能够去发现。
And when one asks questions,        当一个人提问时,
one has also to find out why one asks it.        他也得弄清楚自己为什么问这个问题。
I feel one should ask questions about everything,        我觉得一个人应该对一切都存疑,
but it matters very much        这很重要,
why one is asking those questions,        即为什么人会问那些问题,
what is the background,        背景是什么,
what is the state of the mind        头脑是在怎样的状态下
that is asking those questions?        问出那些问题的?
Is it awaiting an answer        它是在等待一个答案
or expecting to be told?        还是期待被告知?
If it is waiting for an answer,        如果它在等待一个答案,
who is going to answer it?        那么谁来回答?
And a mind that is waiting to find the answer        而一个等待找到答案的头脑
is not an active mind, it's just waiting, expecting.        不是一个活跃的头脑,它只是在等待、期望。
I think then        然后我认为
when we do put a question it becomes very important.        当我们确实提出一个问题时,那问题就变得很重要。
Then such questions, those such questions have        然后这类问题,那些此类问题就有
a catalystic effect.        一种催化效果。
Then such questions do produce an answer in themselves.        然后这类问题确实本身就能产生答案。
So        所以
let's proceed to find out the questions we're asking.        让我们继续来弄清楚我们提出的问题。
We know what aggression is,        我们知道什么是侵略,
we know what violence is,        我们知道什么是暴力、
jealousy, and all the rest of it        嫉妒,等等诸如此类
- which is again a form of energy,        - 这些也是能量的一种形式,
an expression of energy.        能量的一种表达。
And we must also find out, mustn't we, what love is.        而我们也必须去弄清什么是爱,不是吗?
Now, how does one find out?        那么,一个人要如何去发现?
Not if the energies are similar, but what love is.        不是能量是不是相似的,而是爱是什么。
Is love pleasure, desire?        爱是快乐、欲望吗?
Are you waiting for me to answer it?        你在等我来回答吗?
So, how does one find out?        所以,人要如何去发现?
Or is love        或者爱是不是
an energy in a different field altogether,        在一个根本不同的领域里的一种能量,
of a different quality, a different dimension?        有着不同的品质、不同的维度?
And how does one find out what love is?        那么人如何才能发现什么是爱?
Not intellectually, not argumentatively,        不是从智力上,不是通过争论,
not splitting it up, saying it is divine,        不是将其分裂,说它是神圣的
physical and, you know, all the rest of it.        或者肉体上的,你知道,等等诸如此类。
How does one find out the nature of that thing?        一个人如何去发现那个东西的本质?
Will the conscious mind find it out?        有意识的头脑会找到吗?
The conscious mind being the educated, sophisticated,        有意识的头脑是受过教育的、世故的,
the mind that has so many experiences, memories,        有如此之多的经验、记忆的头脑,
stored up resentments, hatreds.        储存了憎、恨。
Q: Love is a surplus when        问:当你自己的问题已经解决时,
your own problems have been solved.        爱就是一种剩余。
K: Love is a surplus when        克:当你自己的问题已经解决时,
one's own problems are solved.        爱就是一种剩余。
We are trying to find that out, sir.        先生,我们在试着弄清楚。
Please, don't let us speculate what love is.        请让我们不要推测爱是什么。
That becomes childish.        那样会变得幼稚。
How does the mind come upon that thing        心灵如何能遭遇那东西
without conscious effort?        而不需要有意识的努力?
If I make a conscious effort to find it out        如果我有意识地努力去找到它,
then my conscious effort must have a recognition of what it is.        那么我有意识的努力必然对它是什么有了某种认知。
You understand?        你明白吗?
I must have already known it,        我必然已经知道它了,
I must have already smelled it, tasted it,        我必须已经闻到了它,尝过它,
known the quality of it,        知道了它的品质,
and if I know it, it's merely a memory.        而如果我知道了它,它就不过是个记忆。
And is memory,        而记忆,
which is of time,        属于时间,
and has that memory and time        那记忆和时间
anything to do with love?        与爱有任何关系么?
So, how does one find it out, come upon it?        所以,人要如何发现它,遇见它?
You understand?        你明白吗?
Am I making myself clear, the question?        我把问题说清楚了吗?
It's like        它就像
inquiring into if there is such thing as 'God'.        探询是否有个“上帝”一样。
I put it in quotes - that word 'God' is so heavily loaded        我将它放入引号 - “上帝”这个词的负载如此之重
that it has almost lost all its meaning.        乃至几乎失去了它所有的意义。
If one wants to discover it, if there is or if there is not,        如果人想发现它,有或者没有,
how does one proceed?        他该如何继续?
Obviously, to find out,        显然,要去发现,
all types of belief must come to an end.        所有形式的信仰都必须终结。
And therefore which means        因此,这意味着
all forms of fear must come to an end.        所有形式的恐惧都必须终结。
Surely. No?        确实如此。不是吗?
Belief is a form of hope,        信仰是希望的一种形式,
and I hope because I am in despair        我希望,是因为我绝望,
and I invent a belief, a security,        于是我发明了一种信仰、一种安全感、
a state of mind which says        心智的一种状态,说着
there is something which is permanent,        有些东西是永恒的,
and I believe in that.        而我相信了那些。
And that belief obviously        很明显,那个信仰
not only conditions all examination,        不仅制约了所有的审视、
all perception,        所有的觉察,
but it prevents the total        而且它妨碍了完全的
inaction.        不行动。
You understand?        你明白吗?
I'd better go into it.        我最好深入其中。
I must not only be free        我必须不仅仅摆脱
of every form of belief, and therefore fear        各种形式的信仰,进而摆脱恐惧,
and also my mind must be so sharp, so sensitive...        而且我的头脑必须如此机警、如此敏感...
the sensitivity brought about by right eating and...        由正确的饮食和...
behaviour and physical condition, and all that.        行为与身体状况以及其他一切所带来的敏感。
And then only there is a possibility        然后才有可能
of discovering something.        去发现一些东西。
So it seems to me, in the same way,        所以,对我来说,用相同的方式,
to find out or come upon        来发现或遇见
this thing called love, which is so heavily loaded,        这个被称为爱的东西,它的负载是如此之重,
one must inquire        人必须去探询
into this question of pleasure and desire.        这个快乐和欲望的问题。
You know, we're not trying to suppress desire.        你知道,我们不是试图压抑欲望。
The monks throughout the world have tried that.        全世界的僧侣都已经试过那些了。
And those so-called religious people        而那些所谓的宗教人士
have attempted to control desire,        已经试图去控制欲望了,
because some authority, religious authority has said,        因为某些权威,宗教权威说过,
'Be free of desire'        “摆脱欲望”,
because desire leads to bondage.        因为欲望导致束缚。
So,        所以,
so-called spiritual people, whatever that word may mean,        所谓的灵性人士,不管那个词意味着什么,
those people have tried either to suppress, eliminate,        那些人已经试过要么去压抑、消除,
or sublimate it        要么去升华欲望,
by identifying themselves with a greater desire.        将他们自己与一个更伟大的欲望相认同。
But they are still within the pattern,        但是他们仍然身处模式中,
within the area of desire.        在欲望的范围内。
And what's wrong with desire?        而欲望有什么问题?
I see something nice, pleasant, striking.        我看到某个漂亮的、令人愉快的、吸引人的东西。
By the very looking at it        一看到它,
there is a sensation, there is desire out of that.        就产生了感官感受,从中产生了欲望。
Isn't that so? Please, this is not a talk,        不是这样吗?请注意,这不是一次谈话,
we must...        我们必须...
And thought comes and gives that desire        而思想到来并赋予那欲望
a continuity and vitality,        以延续性和活力,
and from that there is this...        从中产生了这个...
seeking of pleasure.        对快乐的追寻。
I think this is fairly simple, isn't it,        我认为这相当简单,不是吗?
the verbal explanation.        语言上的解释很简单。
But the explanation is not the fact, is not what you discover.        但是解释不是事实,不是你所发现的。
If you discovered it,        如果你发现了它,
it'll become tremendously vital.        它就变得无比重要。
If I discover how thought strengthens desire        如果我发现了思想是如何强化欲望的,
by thinking about something which has pleased me        通过想着某些曾取悦过我的事物
- sensually, or intellectually, or a sunset, or anything -        - 感官上的、智力上的,或者一次日落,或任何事物 -
by thinking about it,        通过想着它,
it has strengthened the nature of desire        就已经强化了欲望的本质
and has given it a continuity,        并给予了它延续性,
and that continuity becomes pleasure.        那个延续变成了快乐。
All of our attitudes and values and demands        我们所有的态度和价值观以及需求
are based on this search for comfort and pleasure.        都基于这种对舒适和快乐的追求。
And is it possible for thought not to interfere?        那思想是否可能不来干扰?
I see something very beautiful        我看到某个非常美丽的事物,
and there is an immediate sensation        即刻产生了感官感受,
and a desire to touch it, hold it,        一个想触摸它、抓住它的欲望,
to own it, to possess it.        想要拥有它、得到它。
Then thought comes in.        然后思想进来了。
Is it possible to look at something extraordinarily beautiful:        是否可能看着某种美丽非凡的东西:
man, woman, child, tree,        男人、女人、孩子、树、
a house, a picture, whatever it is,        一所房子、一幅画,无论是什么,
and merely observe without the interference of thought?        仅仅去观察,而没有思想的干扰?
And when thought interferes        而当思想干扰时
there is a totally different kind of action,        就会有完全不同的行动,
as when thought doesn't interfere with desire.        完全不同于思想不干扰欲望时的情形。
You understand?        你明白吗?
Right?        对吗?
You understand?        你理解吗?
When thought interferes with the desire,        当思想干扰了欲望,
which becomes pleasure,        它就成了快乐,
then activity has a different meaning altogether, action.        然后行为、行动就有了完全不同的含义。
And when thought doesn't interfere with the desire        而当思想不干扰欲望时,
there is again        就又有了
a totally different action which is not time-binding.        完全不同的不受时间束缚的行动。
So all this is, we are inquiring into the nature,        所以,这一切就是,我们在探询本质,
or come upon that thing which we call love.        或遇见那个我们称为爱的东西。
And we are asking if that love is        我们在问那爱是不是
something not of the same energy as hate.        与恨有着不同能量的东西。
We must bear that in mind, otherwise we will wander away        我们必须将其牢记在心,否则我们就偏离了
from the central question.        核心问题。
And to answer that question, really,        而要真正回答那个问题,
one has to, hasn't one,        你必须,不是吗,
to free the mind from desire and pleasure to find out.        必须将心灵从欲望与快乐中解脱出来,才能去发现。
The gentleman asked 'how'.        这位先生问“如何”。
Is there a how?        有如何吗?
Is there a method        有方法吗?
- listen to the question - is there a method        - 听听这个问题 -有没有一种方法
to free the mind from pleasure?        能让心灵从快乐中解脱?
And the following of a method in order to achieve the result        为了实现某个结果而采用一种方法,
is again based on pleasure.        那还是基于快乐。
No?        不是吗?
So there is no how, there is only a state of listening.        所以没有如何,只有一种倾听的状态。
And when one listens so totally this question is answered.        而当人如此全然地倾听时,这个问题就被解答了。
You see, first of all, sir,        先生你看,首先,
how do you look at anything totally?        你如何完整地去看任何东西?
You say it's not possible,        你说那不可能,
and when you say it is not possible        当你说它不可能时
you have already blocked yourself from finding out.        你已经阻挡了自己去发现。
So to find out,        所以,要发现,
you have to look at your own mind        你就必须看着自己的心,
looking at your friend or somebody,        看着你的朋友或某人,
or at a tree, how you look at it,        或一棵树,你怎么看它,
why do we create an image of another and hold it?        为什么我们制造了关于另一个人的形象并紧抓不放?
And is it not possible at the moment of experience        难道不可能在经验的那一刻
to live it so completely, or let it go through you        完全地活出它,或者让它穿透你
so that no image remains, no mark remains?        乃至没有形象存留,没有标记存留?
Please, these are all questions that really have to be answered        请注意,这些真的都是必须解答的问题,
not by words        不是用言语
but by actual direct perception and discovery.        而是通过真实而直接的洞察和发现。
And...        并且...
to find out anything new        要发现任何新的东西
requires tremendous inquiry, meditation.        需要极其深入的探询、冥想。
You don't just get it by just        你不可能理解它,如果仅仅通过
coming to a meeting for an hour        参加一个小时的集会
and thinking - one has to work tremendously hard.        和思考- 你必须极其投入。
You do work very hard to earn a livelihood,        你的确为了谋生而努力工作,
to go to the office every day.        每天去办公室。
But this requires much more alertness,        但是这需要多得多的警觉,
much more careful examination.        多得多的细心审视。
And one is not...        而人不是...
one does not have the energy, the patience or the interest        人没有那能量、耐心或兴趣,
because this is non-profitable, it doesn't bring you any profit,        因为这个不盈利,它不会带给你任何利润,
financial or any other way.        经济上的或任何其他方式的利益。
Q: Is the action of love a permanent escape of suffering?        问:爱的行动是对受苦的永久逃避吗?
K: Do we know what suffering is?        克:我们知道什么是受苦吗?
Do you really know what suffering is?        你真的知道什么是痛苦吗?
Only we know it when we remain with it. Right?        只有当我们与之共处,我们才能知道。对吗?
We don't remain with anything.        我们不与任何事物共处。
Oh lord! Do we?        噢,老天!我们有吗?
Q: We only think about it. K: We think about it.        问:我们只是想想而已。克:我们思考它。
Let us take the question of suffering.        让我们以这个痛苦的问题为例。
First of all, is it possible to end it?        首先,是否可能终止它?
Totally, without becoming hard, brutal,        完全终止,而不变得冷酷、残忍、
brittle, and all the rest of it?        冷淡,等等诸如此类?
And...        并且...
to go to the very end of it and find out.        深入它的尽头去发现。
Can we do that one thing this afternoon?        今天下午我们能做这一件事情吗?
Shall we?        我们可以吗?
I suffer. Why do I suffer?        我在受苦。为什么我遭受苦难?
And what is the nature of suffering?        痛苦的本质是什么?
I suffer because I have lost my son, my mother, sister,        我痛苦,因为我失去了我的儿子、我的母亲、姐姐,
or somebody doesn't love me,        或者某人不爱我,
or I cannot fulfil, or I'm thwarted,        或者我不能满足,或者我受到阻挠,
I haven't got a good brain        我没有一个好使的大脑
and somebody else has a good brain.        而别人有一个好使的大脑。
And I know what it means to suffer.        我知道痛苦意味着什么。
In suffering there is a great deal of self-pity.        在痛苦中有很多的自怜。
And, suffering, I want to escape from it,        并且,痛苦时,我想逃脱,
because I don't know how to resolve it.        因为我不知道怎样解决它。
And so I have a network of escapes.        所以我有了一个逃避的网络。
Now, can I stop from escaping?        现在,我能停止逃避吗?
And it's very difficult because escaping        这很难,因为逃避
is so subtle.        是如此的微妙。
I can escape by turning on the radio,        我能通过打开收音机逃避,
a magazine, talking to somebody,        或看杂志、与某人谈话,
and so on, but the thing remains,        等等,但是那东西还在,
and I don't want to get in touch with it        而我不想碰触它
- it's too painful, too agonising, I push it away.        - 它太痛苦、太痛苦了,我把它推在一边。
So, can I stop from escaping altogether and just look at it,        所以,我能不能完全停止逃避而仅仅是看着它,
live with it, know it?        与它共处、了解它?
Not suppress it, not control it, not sublimate it,        不是压抑它、不是控制它、不是升华它、
not do all that kind of idiotic stuff,        不是去做所有那些蠢事,
but get to know it, live with it, go into it.        而是去了解它,与它共存,进入它。
Q: You say be quiet. You do give an answer.        问:你说,要安静。你确实给了一个答案。
And yet why just be quiet, why not speak, why not see,        但是为什么仅仅要安静,为什么不去说,为什么不去看,
why not hear, why not do, why not think?        为什么不去听,为什么不去做,为什么不去思考?
K: Sir, we went into that.        克:先生,我们曾探讨过那些。
We have thought a great deal about suffering.        关于痛苦,我们已经思考了很多。
Volumes have been written by religious people        宗教人士已经写了很多
and all the rest of it, and yet we suffer.        等等诸如此类的东西,但是我们仍然在遭受苦难。
Suffering, apparently, is a daily affair.        很明显,痛苦是一种日常事件。
And a man asks: 'Is it possible to end it?'        而有个人问:“是否可能终结它?”
And when he says, 'Please tell me how to end it',        而当他说,“请告诉我如何终结它”时,
then is that thinking, is that examining,        那么,那还是思考、还是检验吗?
or you're merely wanting a result        还是你仅仅是想要一个结果,
which would be greatly pleasurable?        而这个结果将会令人无比快乐?
When the suffering ends,        当痛苦终结了,
obviously you think it will be tremendous,        显然你认为那非同小可,
there'll be great pleasure.        将会有巨大的快乐。
So one follows the method in order to have that pleasure.        所以人遵照方法就是为了得到那快乐。
But there is no understanding of suffering.        但是对于痛苦本身却没有理解。
And so, when there's no understanding of suffering        所以,当没有了解痛苦时
it comes in another form.        它就会以另一种形式到来。
So what we are trying to do is to find out for oneself        所以我们在试着自己去发现
whether it is possible to end        是否可能终止
this thing that we call suffering,        我们称为痛苦的东西,
in which is involved self-pity, loneliness, all that.        其中包含着自怜、孤独,那一切。
Q: Is it necessary to suffer in order to understand suffering?        问:为了了解痛苦,有必要去受苦吗?
K: Is it necessary to suffer in order to understand?        克:为了理解,有必要去受苦吗?
I think, Christianity has made suffering into something holy.        我认为,基督教已将受苦变成了一件神圣的事情。
By suffering we say we are going to,        通过受苦,我们说,我们将会
oh, you know, reach heaven.        噢,你知道,到达天堂。
I think a mind that suffers is the most stupid mind.        我认为受苦的心智是最愚蠢的心智。
It doesn't end it.        它没有结束痛苦。
So please, sir, we come back.        所以,先生,请让我们回来。
What is it we are asking about?        我们所问的是什么?
What is it we're all wanting to find out?        我们所有人想弄清的是什么?
What is the mind when it is not quiet? All right.        不安静的头脑是什么?好吧。
Most of our minds are not quiet, are they?        我们大多数人的头脑并不安静,不是吗?
Ceaselessly agitated, active, thinking about something,        无休止地焦躁着、活动着、思考着些事情,
or soliloquising, talking to itself, imagining,        或者讲着独白,自言自语,想象,
it is endlessly restless, isn't it?        它永远都是不安的,不是吗?
And...        并且...
how do we know any quiet when a mind is so restless?        当头脑如此不安,我们怎么可能了解安静?
And it may be the nature of the mind never to be quiet.        也许永不安静正是头脑的本质。
And why are we so restless,        而为什么我们如此不安,
especially the modern world?        特别是在现代社会?
My tendency, my demand for a particular satisfaction        我的倾向,我对某种特殊满足的需要
has not been satisfied,        没有被满足,
and I'm always seeking something        而我总在寻找某种
which will give me immense satisfaction,        能带给我巨大满足的东西,
and I know there isn't any.        而我知道,根本没有。
So the restless mind may be the result of a neurological state,        所以不安的头脑可能是某种神经质状态的结果,
or restless because        或者不安是因为
we haven't found an answer to anything,        我们没有找到事情的答案,
an answer, in the deep sense of the word,        从这个词深层次的意义上来讲,
to fundamental issues.        指对那些根本问题的答案。
Therefore it has nothing to do,        因此,它无事可做,
it's like a leaf driven all over the place.        就像一片被吹得四处乱飞的叶子。
And...        并且...
without understanding the nature of one's own thinking,        如果不理解人自身思想的本质,
which is self-knowing, quietness of the mind is not possible.        也就是自我认识,心灵的安静是不可能的。
And to know oneself is the beginning of wisdom.        而去认识自己便是智慧的开端。
Not in a book, not in psychology, all that.        它不在书中,不在心理学以及那一切中。
Wisdom is in knowing oneself,        智慧在了解自己当中,
it comes out of the soil of self-knowing.        它从了解自己的土壤长出。
Right, sirs.        对吧,先生们。
Q: This has been the 5th of 8 programs        旁白:这是八集节目中的第五集,
presenting the talks of Krishnamurti.        展示了克里希那穆提的谈话。
Subsequent programs in this series are titled:        这个系列接下来的节目叫做:
'Questioning'        “质疑”、
'Living and Death'        “生与死”
and 'The End of Conflict'.        和“冲突的终结”。

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